Aeronautics Industry Aeronautics Industry    FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Dyna-Soar/Atlas-Centaur Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next          Aeronautics Industry Forum Index -> Aeronautics Industry View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Pat Flannery Guest Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 2:34 pm    Post subject: Re: How to leave Dyna-Soar (or MOL) during an Abort WAS: Dyn alain245@sympatico.ca wrote: Quote: I don't think I like that kind of redundancy. At our skydiving club, there once were two guys who opened their chutes too close to one another. The chutes got tangled together. Fortunetly their reserve chutes worked fine. What if you get a streamer on your main chute, and open your reserve chute without first jettisoning the main chute, so they become entangled? That's happened fatally more than once due to panic by skydivers. Apollo 15 did have a failure of one of its three main chutes, and landed just fine despite that fact. Sounds like really good design work if you ask me. Pat Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Pat Flannery Guest Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 3:08 pm    Post subject: Re: How to leave Dyna-Soar (or MOL) during an Abort WAS: Dyn Henry Spencer wrote: Quote: I'd say they get partial points for that one, because the guy who proposed doing it that way already knew that he was going to be the flight engineer on Voskhod 1...! Hold it a second...he was ordered by Korolev to come up with working out the details of that concept, and was dead set against it...in revenge for his complaints about the safety of the idea, Korolev ordered him to fly on it, so that he could be there to "fix any problems that might occur during flight". He thought Korolev was personally out to kill him for daring to challenge his authority. Korolev could be a mighty cold, self-absorbed, and egotistical SOB. The people who followed him did it because they knew and respected his ability, and knew that he was basically fair and had great power...never out of real friendship or love. They were afraid of him, and what he could do if they ever dared displease him. That was one of the big differences between him and WvB. It was also an endemic problem in Soviet Russia, which defined one's social position not by how well you were liked or respected, but by who you could destroy with a snap of your fingers. I doubt it's changed one iota in present-day Russia. Pat Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Rand Simberg Guest Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 3:13 pm    Post subject: Re: How to leave Dyna-Soar (or MOL) during an Abort WAS: Dyn On Fri, 11 May 2007 03:38:08 GMT, in a place far, far away, henry@spsystems.net (Henry Spencer) made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: Quote: There were serious suggestions that Apollo did not need an escape system, because it was going to be flying on a purpose-built launcher rather than a converted artillery rocket. It's interesting to consider whether even Mercury would have had one, had Atlas's record not been so bad. When you see all of the ways that the LAS can cause a bad day to a nominal mission, I would seriously question its value on Orion. Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Pat Flannery Guest Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 3:22 pm    Post subject: Re: How to leave Dyna-Soar (or MOL) during an Abort WAS: Dyn Fred J. McCall wrote: Quote: One is left wondering what the Soviet military effort would look like using the same 'fair' criteria for measuring it. Pretty small, I would bet... Man-hours. Total man-hours used on the whole thing; right from mining up the materials used to make the metals that build the rockets and payloads, through man-hours spent in designing them, manufacturing them, launching them, and supporting their missions. A fairly Marxist concept of labor, when you come right down to it, and entirely independent of costs in a monetary sense. You could bias this by total population potential man-hours of work for the two countries. In that case, it might have come out fairly even. Pat Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Scott Hedrick Guest Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 3:32 pm    Post subject: Re: How to leave Dyna-Soar (or MOL) during an Abort WAS: Dyn Quote: In article <1178842038.894743.17570@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, alain245@sympatico.ca <alain245@sympatico.ca> wrote: I don't think I like that kind of redundancy. At our skydiving club, there once were two guys who opened their chutes too close to one another. The chutes got tangled together... I'm not a skydiver (a minister once told my brother, who had expressed an interest in being a paratrooper, that only two things fall out of the sky- birdshit and idiots), but I suspect the spectators would enjoy a brief shower of yellow rain from me and my buddy in that case... Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Scott Hedrick Guest Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 3:40 pm    Post subject: Re: How to leave Dyna-Soar (or MOL) during an Abort WAS: Dyn "Henry Spencer" <henry@spsystems.net> wrote in message news:JHuy3K.5tA@spsystems.net... Quote: (Granted, this does not count work done to its benefit that didn't show up in its budget... but then, there was no shortage of that in the US either.) GOtta enjoy those budget games...I'm reading a novel about the Lewis & Clark expedition. One of the ways to limit the budget to get Congress to approve the mission was to induct everyone into the Army, so their pay wasn't billed to the expedition. One the mission had started and Lewis realized he needed a lot more people, he had no problem making them privates- and thus minimizing the impact on the budget. Every government that ever existed plays those games, but I believe the Congress makes all the others look like rank amateurs. Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Pat Flannery Guest Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 3:42 pm    Post subject: Re: How to leave Dyna-Soar (or MOL) during an Abort WAS: Dyn Rand Simberg wrote: Quote: When you see all of the ways that the LAS can cause a bad day to a nominal mission, I would seriously question its value on Orion. We've never had a fatal accident to a crew caused by one, and one Soyuz launch where it saved a crew. On the three out of four failed N-1 launches that carried a active LES, it worked perfectly, despite extremely severe booster failures. No one questions the use of ejection seats in military aircraft, despite the fact that they are far, far, more reliable than rockets on a per-flight basis, even when combat missions are included in their overall history. In fact, if _only_ combat missions are included in regards to ejection-seat equipped military aircraft in their overall history. Pat Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Pat Flannery Guest Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 4:23 pm    Post subject: Re: How to leave Dyna-Soar (or MOL) during an Abort WAS: Dyn Scott Hedrick wrote: Quote: I'm not a skydiver (a minister once told my brother, who had expressed an interest in being a paratrooper, that only two things fall out of the sky- birdshit and idiots), but I suspect the spectators would enjoy a brief shower of yellow rain from me and my buddy in that case... You do realize that due to total mass and density versus air-drag on the falling body, that the skydiver is going to hit the ground first, _followed_ by the urine? Someone's got to write a song about this called "Yellow Rain". I've already written a song about something like this showing the immutable aspect of the interconnection between beer drinkers and the ecosystem, called "Yellow Water": "Yellow water, yellow water, comes out of your penis. Yellow water, yellow water, writes your initials in the snow. Yellow water, yellow water, sinks into the ground down below. Yellow water, yellow water, see it sinking deeper. Down to where the old well waters flow. See it mixing, see it flowing, way underground. Now it's ready, now it's steady, and ready to rise again. To the the old brewery where the beer is made. Yellow water, yellow water, is put in the can. Seal it tightly, keep it sprightly, for the beer men once again. Drink it deeply, drink it quickly, till your bladder is all full. Then it's time to release it from your body's home. Yellow water, yellow water, comes out of your penis. Yellow water, yellow water, writes your initials in the snow...." Pat Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Rand Simberg Guest Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 4:35 pm    Post subject: Re: How to leave Dyna-Soar (or MOL) during an Abort WAS: Dyn On Fri, 11 May 2007 06:42:03 -0500, in a place far, far away, Pat Flannery <flanner@daktel.com> made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: Quote: Rand Simberg wrote: When you see all of the ways that the LAS can cause a bad day to a nominal mission, I would seriously question its value on Orion. We've never had a fatal accident to a crew caused by one, and one Soyuz launch where it saved a crew. The sample space is far too small to draw many conclusions from that. And we're not launching on a Soyuz. I thought that The Shaft is supposed to be "simple" and "safe." Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Greg D. Moore (Strider) Guest Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 5:30 pm    Post subject: Re: How to leave Dyna-Soar (or MOL) during an Abort WAS: Dyn "Rand Simberg" <simberg.interglobal@org.trash> wrote in message news:465e62de.389945441@news.giganews.com... Quote: On Fri, 11 May 2007 06:42:03 -0500, in a place far, far away, Pat Flannery <flanner@daktel.com> made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: Rand Simberg wrote: When you see all of the ways that the LAS can cause a bad day to a nominal mission, I would seriously question its value on Orion. We've never had a fatal accident to a crew caused by one, and one Soyuz launch where it saved a crew. The sample space is far too small to draw many conclusions from that. Hmm. Define 'far to small'. My understanding is that statistically anything over 100 samples is "reasonable" and we have what, about 150? Quote: And we're not launching on a Soyuz. I thought that The Shaft is supposed to be "simple" and "safe." Oh it is. Oh you meant for the crew, not the contractors. Never mind -- Greg Moore SQL Server DBA Consulting Remote and Onsite available! Email: sql (at) greenms.com http://www.greenms.com/sqlserver.html Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Rand Simberg Guest Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 5:37 pm    Post subject: Re: How to leave Dyna-Soar (or MOL) during an Abort WAS: Dyn On Fri, 11 May 2007 13:30:44 GMT, in a place far, far away, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" <mooregr_deleteth1s@greenms.com> made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: Quote: Rand Simberg wrote: When you see all of the ways that the LAS can cause a bad day to a nominal mission, I would seriously question its value on Orion. We've never had a fatal accident to a crew caused by one, and one Soyuz launch where it saved a crew. The sample space is far too small to draw many conclusions from that. Hmm. Define 'far to small'. My understanding is that statistically anything over 100 samples is "reasonable" and we have what, about 150? No, not for our vehicles. Only if you include the Soviets/Russians. I interpreted Pat's "we" to mean the US. The Russians have a different design, and I can't say what kind of failure modes it has. Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Fred J. McCall Guest Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 6:09 pm    Post subject: Re: How to leave Dyna-Soar (or MOL) during an Abort WAS: Dyn Pat Flannery <flanner@daktel.com> wrote: : : :Fred J. McCall wrote: :> :> One is left wondering what the Soviet military effort would look like :> using the same 'fair' criteria for measuring it. Pretty small, I :> would bet... :> : :Man-hours. : But that's not the measurement method that was proposed for measuring the Soviet space effort. It's also not a great measurement of 'effort'. : :Total man-hours used on the whole thing; right from mining up the :materials used to make the metals that build the rockets and payloads, :through man-hours spent in designing them, manufacturing them, launching :them, and supporting their missions. :A fairly Marxist concept of labor, when you come right down to it, and :entirely independent of costs in a monetary sense. :You could bias this by total population potential man-hours of work for :the two countries. :In that case, it might have come out fairly even. : The problem is that every man hour is not worth the same thing (which is how the whole Marxist concept of labor breaks down). If I have 100 workers and dedicate the best 10 of them to an effort, am I really expending 10% of my total effort? -- "Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute." -- Charles Pinckney Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor John Guest Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 7:39 pm    Post subject: Re: How to leave Dyna-Soar (or MOL) during an Abort WAS: Dyn Thank you Henry. Take care . . . John Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor John Guest Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 7:49 pm    Post subject: Re: How to leave Dyna-Soar (or MOL) during an Abort WAS: Dyn On May 9, 10:50 pm, h...@spsystems.net (Henry Spencer) wrote: Quote: Despite the Russians' Cold War reputation as evil scum careless of human life, they were in fact quite cautious with their cosmonauts. This is certainly demonstrated in area of ejection seat performance. The Soviets/Russians developed and deployed some remarkably capable systems. I remember there being quite amount of comment in that regard after the various accidents experienced at the Paris Air Show where the aircraft were lost but the crews saved at unbelievably altitudes. ISTR reports of one pilot getting up, shucking his chute and lighting up a cigarette while his MiG or Sukoi burned a short distance away. I don't recall any discussion about how much his hands shook while trying to light up. Take care . . . John Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Greg D. Moore (Strider) Guest Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 8:31 pm    Post subject: Re: How to leave Dyna-Soar (or MOL) during an Abort WAS: Dyn "Rand Simberg" <simberg.interglobal@org.trash> wrote in message news:465f7107.393570604@news.giganews.com... Quote: On Fri, 11 May 2007 13:30:44 GMT, in a place far, far away, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" <mooregr_deleteth1s@greenms.com> made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: Rand Simberg wrote: When you see all of the ways that the LAS can cause a bad day to a nominal mission, I would seriously question its value on Orion. We've never had a fatal accident to a crew caused by one, and one Soyuz launch where it saved a crew. The sample space is far too small to draw many conclusions from that. Hmm. Define 'far to small'. My understanding is that statistically anything over 100 samples is "reasonable" and we have what, about 150? No, not for our vehicles. Only if you include the Soviets/Russians. I interpreted Pat's "we" to mean the US. The Russians have a different design, and I can't say what kind of failure modes it has. Yeah, I was counting the Soviet/Russian design. Of course actually one could argue we have over 250 samples if you include systems without a LES. And most likely in at least one of those it would have saved the crew. -- Greg Moore SQL Server DBA Consulting Remote and Onsite available! Email: sql (at) greenms.com http://www.greenms.com/sqlserver.html Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         Aeronautics Industry Forum Index -> Aeronautics Industry All times are GMT Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next Page 4 of 5   Jump to: Select a forum Aeronautics Industry----------------Aeronautics Industry  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum 222 Attacks blocked Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group