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kT
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 Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 3:10 am Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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Derek Lyons wrote:
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"Alfred S. Dert" <asdert@web.de> wrote:
jg wrote:
"kT" <cosmic@lifeform.org> wrote in message
Check it out :
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums/forum-view.asp?fid=5
They can't handle reality, so they just edit it out.
What was the subject of the thread?
It was "John Young: Ares I won't work, announcement coming May 23"
Said announcement being notable by its absence.
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Nazi's don't admit anything.
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Kevin Willoughby
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 3:28 am Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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In article <p9pr53d36ahk31e4aibc01b6f4f6qphvfk@4ax.com>, pstanley55
@hotmail.com says...
| Quote: |
CSM and LEM overweight? Anyone care to comment of the effects of
this.
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Best commentary might well be Moonlander (http://www.amazon.com/LANDER-
Smithsonian-History-Aviation-Spaceflight/dp/156098998X), written by the
Principal Engineer of the Lunar Module. He goes into much detail about
the fight against mass. Their first design was a "cheater" that the
designers knew wouldn't make it, but would get them the contract. He is
also quite open about the "anything to save an once" design (e.g., very
fine wires to save a few grams on the avionics, delicate chemical
milling to shave away a little bit of excess structural metal) made
manufacturing much more difficult (see .sig).
| Quote: |
I can think that perhaps weight of moon rocks returned may have
been affected, but since they made moon orbit, was this even true or a
problem?
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Pragmatically, they'd fill the ascent module with all the rocks it could
get back to the CM. So yah, it made a difference.
More interesting was that as they got weight and procedures under better
control and were willing to take a few more risks, they managed to do
longer duration visits with more elaborate equipment, including the
lunar rover with an essentially unchanged LM.
| Quote: |
On Wed, 30 May 2007 19:29:51 GMT, fairwater@gmail.com (Derek Lyons)
wrote:
"Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" <mooregr_deleteth1s@greenms.com> wrote:
Yeah. Very few programs ever have weight problems during development
- think how much trouble NASA would have been in had the CSM and LEM
turned out to be overweight.
Oh, wait. They did.
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And, indeed, they expected these issues. Witness von Braun's famous
decision to disbelive the mass estimates of the CM and LM. He built in
the margins that seem to missing from the Stick. This suggests a failure
of the Stick managers to learn from history...
--
Kevin Willoughby kevinwilloughby@acm.org.invalid
My assignment to run S/CAT [Space/Craft Assembly and Test]
was a unique learning experience and an appropriate form
of retribution. On the assembly floor I came fact to face
with the troublesome design of features I had approved,
and in some cases demanded, when I was project engineer,
which caused untold hours of toil for the manufacturing
technicians who had to make them work in the real world.
-- Thomas J. Kelly, engineer of the LM
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
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http://www.usenet.com |
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Pat Flannery
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 4:33 am Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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Derek Lyons wrote:
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Yeah. Very few programs ever have weight problems during development
- think how much trouble NASA would have been in had the CSM and LEM
turned out to be overweight.
Oh, wait. They did.
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Luckily ve had der Germans at verk, and they overbuilt the Saturn V
because they knew that was bound to happen.
The thing that really grew in size and capabilities was the LM.
Pat |
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kT
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 4:42 am Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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Pat Flannery wrote:
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Derek Lyons wrote:
Yeah. Very few programs ever have weight problems during development
- think how much trouble NASA would have been in had the CSM and LEM
turned out to be overweight.
Oh, wait. They did.
Luckily ve had der Germans at verk, and they overbuilt the Saturn V
because they knew that was bound to happen.
The thing that really grew in size and capabilities was the LM.
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Yes, but think it through. von Braun deferred to his engineers and the
simulations, on the high energy upper stages (J2) and the rendezvous.
Griffin is just adding the steroids (SRBs), it's still Apollo.
We are considerably more sophisticated than that now.
We don't need a truck, we need a taxi.
We can't afford another Apollo.
http://cosmic.lifeform.org/?p=302
--
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Henry Spencer
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 6:15 am Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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In article <p9pr53d36ahk31e4aibc01b6f4f6qphvfk@4ax.com>,
<pstanley55@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
CSM and LEM overweight? Anyone care to comment of the effects of
this. I can think that perhaps weight of moon rocks returned may have
been affected, but since they made moon orbit, was this even true or a
problem?
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Oh yes. It meant very careful planning and very limited missions -- for
example, there were substantial parts of the lunar surface that Apollo
could not reach at all, due to complex interlocking constraints. (And
others which it could reach, but only with severely limited payload both
down and up, which meant short stays, minimal surface equipment, and small
sample payloads.) Nothing that couldn't have been worked around with a
bit more fuel etc., but there just wasn't any to spare.
--
spsystems.net is temporarily off the air; | Henry Spencer
mail to henry at zoo.utoronto.ca instead. | henry@spsystems.net |
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Henry Spencer
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 6:24 am Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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In article <MPG.20c7d2533aebf1a3989698@News-East.Usenet.com>,
Kevin Willoughby <kevinwilloughby@acm.org.invalid> wrote:
| Quote: |
More interesting was that as they got weight and procedures under better
control and were willing to take a few more risks, they managed to do
longer duration visits with more elaborate equipment, including the
lunar rover with an essentially unchanged LM.
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Not quite true -- there were some important LM changes, notably larger
descent-stage tanks and a stretched descent-engine nozzle. In addition to
a host of changes and optimizations elsewhere, mind you, including simply
accepting a slightly greater chance that gross underperformance by the
launcher would require aborting the mission.
--
spsystems.net is temporarily off the air; | Henry Spencer
mail to henry at zoo.utoronto.ca instead. | henry@spsystems.net |
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Henry Spencer
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 6:41 am Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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In article <465fd06c.91365125@news.supernews.com>,
Derek Lyons <fairwater@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Yeah, generally not a good sign when you start 3000 lbs overweight and you
haven't even bent metal yet.
Yeah. Very few programs ever have weight problems during development
- think how much trouble NASA would have been in had the CSM and LEM
turned out to be overweight. Oh, wait. They did.
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The difference is that Apollo had serious overweight problems -- beyond the
available margins -- *much* later in the project.
To run into serious weight problems so early might conceivably indicate
that they're so much more on top of things that they can see the problem
coming much farther ahead. Unfortunately, it's much more likely that
their initial concept simply had grossly inadequate margins, and so
they're in flashing-red-light-OVERWEIGHT territory at a time when Apollo's
more cautious design was still comfortably safe.
The really bad part is, they've already had to shake up the design two or
three times to add more margin. Diminishing returns set in fairly quickly
if you keep doing that. What's going to happen when *they're* at the
point where Apollo hit real mass trouble, and have much less room to
maneuver because they've already squeezed the design as hard as they can?
--
spsystems.net is temporarily off the air; | Henry Spencer
mail to henry at zoo.utoronto.ca instead. | henry@spsystems.net |
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Henry Spencer
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 6:48 am Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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I wrote:
| Quote: |
...there were substantial parts of the lunar surface that Apollo
could not reach at all, due to complex interlocking constraints. (And
others which it could reach, but only with severely limited payload both
down and up, which meant short stays, minimal surface equipment, and small
sample payloads.)
|
Oops, forgot to mention: this was one of the problems with some of the
more ambitious landing targets that the geologists kept asking for,
notably Tycho. Granted that Tycho is a very interesting place, is it
worth one of the few remaining Apollo flights if (for example) you don't
have enough payload to take a rover, so you're limited to exploring the
area the crew can walk to?
--
spsystems.net is temporarily off the air; | Henry Spencer
mail to henry at zoo.utoronto.ca instead. | henry@spsystems.net |
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robert casey
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 9:59 am Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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We are considerably more sophisticated than that now.
We don't need a truck, we need a taxi.
We can't afford another Apollo.
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Depends on what we want to do up there on the Moon. We already did the
flags and footprints... |
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Pat Flannery
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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kT wrote:
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Griffin is just adding the steroids (SRBs), it's still Apollo.
We are considerably more sophisticated than that now.
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Yeah, but our rocket technology ain't.
| Quote: |
We don't need a truck, we need a taxi.
We can't afford another Apollo.
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I seriously doubt if we'll have to deal with that problem, comes
November of 2008. ;-)
Pat |
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Pat Flannery
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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Henry Spencer wrote:
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The difference is that Apollo had serious overweight problems -- beyond the
available margins -- *much* later in the project.
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But it's like weight creep on the X-20 Dyna-Soar - it's never going to
actually fly, so who really cares how overweight it gets? :-D
Pat |
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Pat Flannery
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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Pat Flannery wrote:
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But it's like weight creep on the X-20 Dyna-Soar - it's never going to
actually fly, so who really cares how overweight it gets? :-D
Pat
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You know, I'd have loved to see them take the final Dyna-Soar and stick
it on top of that Titan I with the big added fins, as originally intended.
I picture the launch going something like this:
The Titan I/Dyna-Soar cranks up to full thrust on the pad.
Around five seconds later, as propellant usage on the Titan I allows
thrust to exceed overall stack mass, the thing claws slowly skyward.
Titan stage one expends its propellants at around twenty thousand feet,
with the stack moving at around 2,000 mph.
Titan stage two ignites, propelling the Dyna-Soar upwards to well over
200,000 feet and around Mach 4.
Dyna-Soar separates from Titan stage two and fires its solid fuel escape
rocket, adding a further Mach in the process.
Dyna-Soar coasts up to 400,000 feet, and begins its reentry maneuvers.
Scott Crossfield glide lands Dyna-Soar; says it's "Not that really
different from bringing a X-15 home."
Air Force applauds Dyna-Soar and Crossfield: "Safe and easy to handle!"
"Test pilot praises Dyna-Soar!" "New era in space exploration has
begun!", demands Titan IIIs, and 5 billion dollars to follow up on
successful flight. ;-)
Pat |
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kT
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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Pat Flannery wrote:
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kT wrote:
Griffin is just adding the steroids (SRBs), it's still Apollo.
We are considerably more sophisticated than that now.
Yeah, but our rocket technology ain't.
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Maybe your's isn't, but mine is. You're still living in the 50's.
| Quote: |
We don't need a truck, we need a taxi.
We can't afford another Apollo.
I seriously doubt if we'll have to deal with that problem, comes
November of 2008. ;-)
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So you think all of America's problems will all just 'go away'?
Ok, so you're delusional too. You are an American, no?
--
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Jim Davis
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 8:30 pm Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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kT wrote:
| Quote: |
Which is why my SSME SSTO test vehicle, the Delta V, routinely
gets me to orbit pulling less than 8 gees with easily
attainable mass fractions and plenty of fuel to spare.
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<chuckle>
You left out the part where Bill Gates hands you a blank check, the
Democrats nominate you for President, and Jessica Alba wants to
have your baby.
Jim Davis |
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Pat Flannery
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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kT wrote:
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Maybe your's isn't, but mine is. You're still living in the 50's.
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Show me a technology that gives us a order of magnitude increase in
ISP...because if you can't do that, all you're doing is blowing
rose-smelling farts out of your ass while you're dreaming.
Pat |
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